Manu Tuilagi smashes Tom Williams

Top14 player imposter!

JDV smashed by Benoit August

The Northampton Saints 30m scrum!

Bastareaud huge hit on Rory Lamont

All Blacks skills - Pt 2 In the backyard

Trinh-Duc sets up Harinordoquy try

Wales vs England 1999

Greg Holmes great hit on Francois Louw

Monday, October 08, 2007

Very Suspicious Serge Betsen knockout

On Saturday night the All Blacks got knocked out of the tournament by France, and as some will say, by a forward pass. Regardless, France will play England in the Semi Final next weekened and probably without key flanker Serge Betsen due to a concussion.

Betsen got knocked out in the opening stages of the match from what looked like an accidental collision. We've taken a close look at the footage and picked up on something that, although not 100% conclusive, looks very incriminating to me.

Now, despite the fact that New Zealand wont play any further part in this World Cup, we thought we'd bring it to your attention, more for discussion and awareness than anything else.

Joe Rokocoko cleaned up a messy lineout and charged into Serge Betsen. France's defensive powerhouse Betsen was left "out like a light" on the floor.

At first glance it looks like he copped an accidental elbow while making the tackle. A look at the alternate replay angle provided in the video reveals that Betsen appeared to be getting to his feet. Then, watch his head as Keith Robinson enters the picture.

A player blocks a full view of the incident, but Betsen collapsing back to the ground and Robinson's fist sends a pretty clear picture.

Decide for yourself.

UPDATE 11/10/07:
I still feel theres a possibility of it being a closed hand punch/push which forced Betsen onto his own players knee, but thats my opinion and I'm only one of 5000 people that visit here everyday.

So, if you disagree thats cool, you're probably right. Opinions are like assholes - everyones got one, and we all think that everyone elses stinks.

Case closed.




  • In my mind, when he wants to go up, he got pushed by a black (nothing wrong here) and by beeing pushed, his head going back, right on the knee of his team8.
    By the way, he look totaly cured yesterday on TV in France.

    By Anonymous kali, at October 08, 2007 9:44 am  

  • I agree with the previous comment. Looks like a knockout due to the knee of a team mate..

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at October 08, 2007 9:45 am  

  • i think the same of u 2.....he was hited by his team mate leg...

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at October 08, 2007 9:54 am  

  • definately got knocked out by the knee of his team mate.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at October 08, 2007 9:55 am  

  • Possibly both though? Watch Robinsons hand carefully... Starts out open fisted, then when it comes back it's closed.

    A closed fist may have pushed Betsen into the path of his teamates leg? Just throwing that out there.

    By Blogger Rugbydump Admin, at October 08, 2007 9:57 am  

  • I'm with the first few guys, definately his own players knee. I think the admin is desperately searching for something that isn't there.

    Robinson would have to be pretty talented to plan to push Betsen's head to perfectly line up with the Frenchies knee.

    Also, Betsen head isn't "jerked" in any direction from Robinson's hand, it is however, quite badly, from the knee.

    By Anonymous molly, at October 08, 2007 10:07 am  

  • yeh, cos the kiwis don't do filth eh? well unlux boys, enjoy your 20 hour flight home to a hostile reception. you almost made serge serge choke on his tongue, but your case of choking is far more severe and incurable

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at October 08, 2007 11:03 am  

  • Betsen went down before that he was hited by his team mate knee, so...

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at October 08, 2007 11:37 am  

  • i think the fact that pelous went mental stright after is an indication that he saw something he didn't like

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at October 08, 2007 11:37 am  

  • I believe that Robinson has done what many other players have done for years, seen a guy getting up at the base of the ruck, and pushed him back to the ground. The only problem was that one of Betsens teammates came in and clunked his knee against the side of Serges noggin. Not deliberate by Robinson, just unlucky that when he pushed him, a player collided with serge. Simple. But thats only my opinion.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at October 08, 2007 11:58 am  

  • it was his own team-mates knee! clear as day, didn't hear any commentators or pundits think otherwise either, and you know how sensationalist and prone to exaggeration they all can be... might help if i could see it again here, but no joy with any of the rwc2007 clips on this site... anyone see it else where yet?

    By Blogger Stephen, at October 08, 2007 12:40 pm  

  • Definitely nothing incriminating against Robinson in that, he simply pushed him to the ground and into the path of a teammate's knee. Just very unlucky for Betsen in my opinion. It's not like Robinson planned it, probably just wanted to delay Betsen from getting to the ball.

    My 2 cents.

    By Anonymous Christiaan, at October 08, 2007 12:43 pm  

  • knee from his team mate, nothing more. you can see his legs go stiff which is common from a head knock after the knee to the head.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at October 08, 2007 12:53 pm  

  • That was a punch, full stop.Pelous saw it and made it pretty clear he did not like it.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at October 08, 2007 1:05 pm  

  • Stephen, plz mail me if you continue to have problems viewing the clips? I think maybe they're blocked at your office or wherever you're trying to see them?

    By Blogger Rugbydump Admin, at October 08, 2007 1:13 pm  

  • What I found more ridiculous was the assumption by all commentators even on ITV here in the UK that Serge Betsen got knocked out in the contact with Rocokoco. I haven't experienced Rocokoco's power or size at first hand but I believe that Serge Betsen is made of stern stuff and it would take maybe a Lomu at 50 mph to knock him out.

    By Blogger I really do talk a lot, at October 08, 2007 1:35 pm  

  • could you slow down the first scene as well ? i think one can see more from this angle although it's further away.

    By Anonymous mat, at October 08, 2007 1:40 pm  

  • its quite clear to see his open hand pushing betsen down, no way is it a punch or a purposeful push into team mates knee, just an old school trick of keeping a key man out of the game, no malice, no question

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at October 08, 2007 2:04 pm  

  • Betson was definately pushed down by Robinson and then received a running knee behind the ear from a 100kg+ bloke which is why he was out-cold for so long. Crazy assumption to accuse Robinson of punching.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at October 08, 2007 2:39 pm  

  • You it clear on the slow-mo that Robinson's hand is open shortly before he pushes him in the chest and then closes when he pulls it back.

    By Blogger Simon, at October 08, 2007 2:42 pm  

  • yeah... seems definitely to be a punch. You can see the hand going from close fist to opening as he retract the arm after "gently pushing" (some would say)Betsen. Quite a bad move and behaviour if you ask me. It was quite a loss for tha french 'tackle force' but didn't prevent them to achieve a 90% rate of succesfull tackles during the match an didn't impact too much the outcome did it ? :-)

    By Anonymous goodj, at October 08, 2007 2:44 pm  

  • I think its pretty clear it was the knee that did it. Pelous probably went mad because he also didn't see it clearly, so it may have looked like it was a punch.

    By Blogger Andrew, at October 08, 2007 2:57 pm  

  • he is not punched. Right before the teammate blocks the view you see an open hand pushing Betsen on his chest, not in the face. Even when you assume that Robinson hit Betsen, it wouldn't knock him out. So I will go for the knee that knocks him out.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at October 08, 2007 2:59 pm  

  • Are you guys joking about the punch?
    If you watch the first run of the clip in real time you get a clear unobstructed few of the shove. No punch, no closed fist, nothing.
    Shoved him back to the ground and he got a wack behind the ear by his team mates knee. No questions.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at October 08, 2007 3:03 pm  

  • This is really easy, people. Betsen is getting up from the tackle, and as he does so, Robinson (with an open hand) pushes him down towards the ground in the chest. Robinson's intention is to delay Betsen's return to the breakdown. Unfortunately for him, Betsen collides with the rather more forceful knee, then shin, of his team mate who is running hard. Herein lies the KO. A nasty one.

    Robinson then retracts his hand, and only then is it with a closed fist. There can be no explosive force in Robinson's straight arm as it pushes, and his arm did not extend in a manner consistent with a punch. Betsen could not possibly have been knocked out by an open-fingered, straight-armed finger push. He'd need a haymaker.

    Admin, I think you're fishing for something that isn't here. Please continue to show the dirty play, but please label it accurately. No Hollywood script-writing. I come to this site because I can find stuff here that I can't find anywhere else, and because it is NOT exaggerated or biased.

    By Anonymous Sven, at October 08, 2007 3:09 pm  

  • although it does look suspicious at first viewing its kinda obvious he pushed him in the chest and the collision with his head and the shin would be enough for a KO

    By Anonymous Joe, at October 08, 2007 3:55 pm  

  • well ... to be honest nothing like 100% sure ... although I have my own idea of it as stated before :-).

    Not to be too harsh, let's say its a combination of the voluntary punch(slight if you want)/push(make your choice) and an unfortunate knee coming in the way being probably the ultimate reason of the knock-out(commotion).

    It doesn't make the initial move of 'pushing/punching the guy getting up and not playing the ball' brighter or a clean play and I can say it's quite a bad habit.


    By Anonymous goodj, at October 08, 2007 4:07 pm  

  • this is retarded to try to make a conspiracy out of that- you can BLATANTLY see his own teammates knee knock him on the back of the head. Robinson has no fault.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at October 08, 2007 4:07 pm  

  • are you kidding me? what fist? that was legit palm... i mean granted maybe he should have left him alone since he was on the floor but there was no "fist" or anything resembling something that would be able to knock him out.... let me guess... you don't like kiwi's right?.... thought so

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at October 08, 2007 4:13 pm  

  • Well I didn't hear anything/anybody about trying to make it look like a conspiracy (as if it was a planned move to remove Betsen from the field). I certainly don't think so and I don't think anybody mentionned that so ... whats your point ?

    By Anonymous goodj, at October 08, 2007 4:13 pm  

  • I noticed it already during the game. It is definitly the knee of the French nr8 coming in. Nothing more nothing less. Robinson is just pushing him down to build up the ruck.

    By Anonymous ObieWan, at October 08, 2007 4:15 pm  

  • ohh and I do like Kiwi's (I met a few ones) and the All Blacks as a wonderfull and probably the best team but it doesn't prevent me to comment on suspicious moves whatever the nationality or the team...

    Take it easy, I'm not trying to be rude to anybody

    By Anonymous Goodj, at October 08, 2007 4:19 pm  

  • On french TV, sunday morning, they were interviewing Fabien Pelous and Raphael Ibanez... and he made some private joke on Pelous when asked about Betsen injury. Pelous laughed but looked embarassed... and he is the one you can see in video with the knee very close to Betsen's head.
    He was just in front of the action, and you can bet he would not have let Robinson go away like that if there was anything suspicious.
    Here, in France, nobody's suspecting bad behaviour from NZ.

    By Anonymous Fargi, at October 08, 2007 4:24 pm  

  • Yes you're right, nobody in France is making that a 'war case' and I agree there is no doubt that the knee is the final reason for the knock-out ... but still ... :-) just kidding

    By Anonymous Goodj, at October 08, 2007 4:30 pm  

  • in 4:18 you clearly can see the punch

    By Anonymous Joaquin, at October 08, 2007 4:31 pm  

  • *you can clearly

    By Anonymous Joaquin, at October 08, 2007 4:33 pm  

  • If you look closely at the first time the shot is shown, not zoomed in, you can see that Robinson uses a palm against the chin or lower. No way that would have knocked out somebody as tough as Betsen.
    If he would have gotten a punch right at his face, I doubt that all the French lads would have missed it and let it go unpunished. At the very least there would be some anger and exchange of strong words.

    By Blogger Sea-Bass, at October 08, 2007 5:15 pm  

  • i've seen the replay and honestly nothing suspicius about that "extended" arm on betsen.
    no way a punch thrown in that position would knockout him.

    No history on that particular play...

    By Blogger Simones, at October 08, 2007 5:42 pm  

  • you guys at rugby dump are just trying to stir shit. Could you not find any good stuff to show, so therefore resort to making up stupid accusations. As for goodj comments... fuck off from this website ya tosspot. Wankers like you give rugby a bad name.
    He got a knee in the head by his team mate. end of story

    By Anonymous ant, at October 08, 2007 5:48 pm  

  • When you first see it you think "wow, dude, robinson threw a punch. did not see that at the time." then when you watch it again after, "hang on, he just pushed him back down, everyone does that. unlucky bout the knee clattering betsens head". it was a good spot, however, nothing malicious, just standard rugby play. and for all those d@*$heads that are complaining that rugby dump is stirring i shit, feckoff! its a good spot, and a good talking point. keep up the good work and am loving the banter!

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at October 08, 2007 6:04 pm  

  • It was clearly his own team-mates knee....but either way he seemed 100% fine at the final whistle! Big french poof!

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at October 08, 2007 6:10 pm  

  • ant's comment
    "As for goodj comments... fuck off from this website ya tosspot. Wankers like you give rugby a bad name."

    Well, you see I rather think that it's insulting mouthfull like you that could harm rugby spirit

    Get over the defeat (that is if you are a Kiwi), take a deep breath and read again the comments: nothing insulting, I reconn the knee is the main reason for the K.O. and just comment on what lead to it (and I can add there was no irony in none of my posts).

    So please stop insulting people... and if you stil fill the need for it, go on.. so be it , I wont spoil the comments with personal arguments (I'm not 11 years old) so be my guest.

    By Anonymous Goodj, at October 08, 2007 6:33 pm  

  • Yup, i agree with the guy above, it is someones opinion that he got punched, and at the end of the day if admin left who would run this site? it wouldnt be here, therefore a lot of people would be missing out!

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at October 08, 2007 6:38 pm  

  • For all those who are saying that his hand is open, and then he simply closes it when he retracts it. You're wrong.

    As he pulls away, you can still see his one hand still open, if you look carefully. His second hand is in a clenched fist.

    By Anonymous Graeme, at October 08, 2007 7:13 pm  

  • Geeze, that's at least a ten week ban, right there. Very good catch, admin! But you can bet your bottom dollar the IRB won't do anything, because they allow NZ to get away with everything.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at October 08, 2007 8:35 pm  

  • nah as you can see its Pelous, comes round and purposefully drops a knee into Betsens head, totally malicious from the frenchman on his own teammate there, knocking him the funk out, deserves a lifelong ban to be honest

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at October 08, 2007 9:08 pm  

  • If you watch the full speed real time incident you can tell that he just shoves him back down. Who knows though? Maybe it had malicious intent? Maybe he tried to punch him or shove him into his own teammate?

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at October 08, 2007 9:13 pm  

  • shouldnt have actually pushed him at all! it isnt legal to push someone!

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at October 08, 2007 9:53 pm  

  • ARE YOU BLIND ????
    Look the video !!
    Betsen got a punch !!! Look attentively the video ! When he want to stand up, we can see the arm of a NZ player removing. there is a NZ player who hide the punch but just after that we can see the hand close removing !
    It's not the tackle ! it's not knee or leg ! IT'T A PUNCH ! make a freeze frame and you 'll see the punch just after the hit !
    Who is malicious ?
    And what interest would have be betsen to leave the game after few minutes..
    Anyway the all black going home and competion will continue !

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at October 08, 2007 10:09 pm  

  • Hard to tell, but like peolpe have said if he was punched the pelous would have gone nuts.

    this is better talk then that forward pass

    bye bye all blacks

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at October 08, 2007 10:28 pm  

  • Il y a une autre video qui est passé sur les chaines françaises où l'on voit clairement le coup de poing !
    There is another video shown on french TV today showing the punch clearly from another
    But you can continue to make suspicious...
    ps) I hope a great semi final !!

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at October 08, 2007 10:47 pm  

  • i dont no wot hit him but new zealand r cheatin bastards n thy always get awy with it.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at October 08, 2007 10:53 pm  

  • He definitely copped a knee. There is no way he got punched, Robinson pushed him a bit, but it was open in and open hand out. Keith isn't Bruce Lee.

    By Blogger Kyle, at October 08, 2007 11:32 pm  

  • IT's Julien Bonnaire's KNEE. Not the tackle on rocokoco, not the push by robinson. It was unfortunate, that's all. Nothing to blame on the AB's at this one.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at October 08, 2007 11:53 pm  

  • IRT Kyle
    "but it was open in and open hand out"

    Robinson has two hands near Betsen's head. One his open, one is a fist. Watch closely.

    By Anonymous Graeme, at October 09, 2007 12:03 am  

  • Anonymous. Can't spell, don't know the rules of rugby, can't remember your own name. Bugger off & leave the formu for grown ups.

    By Anonymous mark, at October 09, 2007 12:07 am  

  • IRT Sven

    "Robinson then retracts his hand, and only then is it with a closed fist."

    No. The open hand you see before the player blocks the the view IS STILL OPEN when it comes back into view. There's a closed fist in front of it, making it hard to see. But you can still see the open hand still open.

    The closed hand (Robinson's other hand) was not closed as it pulled away from Betsen...it was already closed.

    By Anonymous Graeme, at October 09, 2007 12:08 am  

  • Looks like a knee from his own team mate but the fist thing does look a little supect. Maybe Betsen didn't feel the full effect of Roks til he tried getting up again than dropped back to the ground.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at October 09, 2007 12:42 am  

  • clutching at straws a bit there, the damage was done by his team mate's knee and there's no way he deliberately pushed betsen's head into the path of the knee.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at October 09, 2007 12:48 am  

  • A team mate knee?! What the!

    I had a team mate hit my head with his knee in a similar position. And I also saw what a powerful punch can do when you are not expecting one.

    To black out like that, was definitely a punch into the chin while it was not in a position to receive it.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at October 09, 2007 1:23 am  

  • Nice tackle, but a better right cross!!!!!

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at October 09, 2007 1:27 am  

  • Here in France (I'm French, sorry for my poor english) nobody's talking about that. I don't understand why some people here are desperatly trying to see a punch.
    If there were a punch, the French players would have reacted during the game, or the staff after the game.
    As it have been said many times, Robinson didn't want to hurt Betsen, but just to delay him from the action. If's a good reflex for a player clearing a ruck zone. But unfortunately Pelous hit Betsen's head and knocked him out.
    By the way, feel sad for the All Blacks; they're a great team and I hope they'll manage next time to play under high pressure as well as they do in "ordinary games".
    Good luck for the next 3-Nations.

    Xavier, France

    By Anonymous Xavier, at October 09, 2007 1:53 am  

  • Piss weak argument there. And I cant believe the amount of blind idiots who cant clearly see that it was his own team-mate who knocked him out cold..

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at October 09, 2007 2:20 am  

  • i am seeing the knee of his teammate putting his lights out too.

    By Blogger TEVITA_PULULOLE, at October 09, 2007 8:08 am  

  • Robinson doesn't even cock his arm back for a punch. both his arms are out and he just pushed him back down.

    it's clearly the knee.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at October 09, 2007 10:05 am  

  • It staggers me that some people claim they can see a punch in that clip, probably qualifies them to work for the IRB judiciary actually.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at October 09, 2007 10:29 am  

  • LOL at that last comment. Spot on.

    By Blogger Rugbydump Admin, at October 09, 2007 11:14 am  

  • not a punch?
    a guy his size doesnt go down like that for no reason.

    seems a little like the all black on Brian O'Driscoll, gues that was a fair tackle as well.

    maybe thats one way to win take on the key players

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at October 09, 2007 11:28 am  

  • all talks have been going on about the hand of robinson being open or closed. Well let's add another thing to knock someone out. Speed and force. For a rugbyplayer to be knocked out you need a powerful thus fast blow on the chin or in the face. The only movement in the footage that is fast and powerful enough to knock betsen out is the knee. If Robinson would have hit Betsen, it wouldn't even hurt him.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at October 09, 2007 11:48 am  

  • He was kicked in the head accidently by the French player who crosses the screen. The kiwi player pushed him to the ground with an open hand, there was absolutely no punch.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at October 09, 2007 12:28 pm  

  • Dirty kiwi *******, I was shouting at the telle when it happened; you could easily see a fist, but as usual the usless commentators saw nothing !!! an obvious punch, he must be 'sited' for it. whether 'surge' was nocked out by it or not, a punishment is deserved, too many professionals get away with horrible fouls like this, it is now what makes the difference between the big teams winning and losing, what a sad state of affairs when you find yourself watching a match only to see more action off the ball than on it.

    By Anonymous Jim, at October 09, 2007 1:14 pm  

  • ok having given closer inspection, i must correct my self. It is in fact obvious that he is belted in the back of his head by a team mate ( some mate!!) However i still think hat far to many 'Clever' or proffesional fouls are committed in todays game, what are we a bunch of footballer or what !!

    By Anonymous Jim, at October 09, 2007 1:24 pm  

  • I think there may have been a second punch unseen by the cameras, perhams coming from that grassy knoll area. You clearly see his head go back and to the left, back and to the left.
    Hope to see Serge in the semi though that looks unlikely.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at October 09, 2007 2:20 pm  

  • First-up: I love rugbydump. The clip compilations are great, and it's often the first place I turn when bored at work. But please, to claim a punch, and then try and say it's an even sided debate at "about 60 - 40" is nonsense. There are 13 posts, out of 73, or about 18%, that think they can see a punch.

    However, most of these are anonymous. Someone definitely ha an axe to grind.

    "60 - 40"? My hair arse.

    There's no punch. Nothing wrong with admitting you got it wrong rugbydump. Don't compound it by lying about the posts here.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at October 09, 2007 5:51 pm  

  • That bastard Robinson thumped me - there's no question about it. He got me right on the nose.
    I'm not complaining though, we got away with a forward pass and scraped through to the next round. The Kiwis with their silly grey jumpers are on their way home.

    By Anonymous Serge Betsen, at October 09, 2007 6:04 pm  

  • "" However, most of these are anonymous. Someone definitely ha an axe to grind.
    "60 - 40"? My hair arse. ""

    You mean anonymous ... like you ? :-) lol

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at October 09, 2007 6:22 pm  

  • that was a FUCKING DIRTY PUNCHHHH!!!!!!

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at October 09, 2007 7:07 pm  

  • i can see where admin is coming from but if you look carefully, you see that just before the french number 4 comes in, Robinson pushes Betsen down with an open hand, and then betsen cops no. 4's knee to the back of his head, lights out. unbelieveabley, im agreeing with a kiwi ref, nothin malicious there!

    By Anonymous wills, at October 09, 2007 7:17 pm  

  • While watching the replays during the game, it seemed pretty clear to me that he caught a knee to the back of the head from the French #4 while trying to get up out of the tackle. That doesn't mean he *wasn't* punched mind you, but I think the knee had more to do with the concussion than anything else.

    By Blogger Seth, at October 09, 2007 8:03 pm  

  • no way was there any meliciousness from the all black player betsen was justed pushed back down from a open palm to the chest
    anyway england to beat those french twats !!

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at October 09, 2007 9:20 pm  

  • i dont think that it was deliberate just an accident due to rough tackling

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at October 09, 2007 9:32 pm  

  • It was def a punch that got sent him down and the knee added to the injury...

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at October 09, 2007 9:38 pm  

  • How can you conclude it's a punch from that video? We really shouldn't let Rugby become soccer, where you can pretend anything happened and milk it for all its worth.

    The French played well, the ABs not well enough. Poor refereeing for both teams was an obvious factor too (but only one of them).

    The thing that disappoints me most after this match is the fan behaviour. Rude & mean French fans versus rude & mean AB fans. Please don't think all All Black fans are as arrogant as some that post on forums..........I will still support them when they get home, and I will try and ignore some of the disgraceful French fans (and awful home fans) around so that I can enjoy watching the French team beat England........

    By Blogger Simon, at October 09, 2007 10:35 pm  

  • It wasn't a punch, he simply pushed him back to the ground. Unfortuneately, this just happened to be in the line of his player's knee

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at October 10, 2007 12:21 am  

  • It was the knee

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at October 10, 2007 2:16 am  

  • Simon, Thank you for your post. I have just posted a comment on another page which says almost exactly yours. Rugby fans are becoming as bad as football fans. I love this sport because of the fact fans from both teams usually get along, but gone are the days.... The aftermath of France - NZ and Aussie - England have changed my mind about rugby fans. Disgraceful from all involved in the mud-slinging.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at October 10, 2007 2:36 am  

  • It was a marcian disguised as 10 meter line.

    He was obvious a kiwi fan. Damn you Adidas and your outdoors in meteors!

    By Anonymous Matheus, at October 10, 2007 2:39 am  

  • If you watch it very closely and freeze at the point of expected impact with the clenched fist (albeit hidden by thigh) and go forward a frame you will see Betsen's head jerks backwards considerably. This is all before the teammates leg makes any kind of contact.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at October 10, 2007 4:21 am  

  • If you want to see a real punch have a look at Pelous at the beginning of the 2nd Half, 2nd ruck(40:30').
    Something happens in the ruck, Pelous sees it and doesn't like it...

    By Blogger momeunier, at October 10, 2007 7:16 am  

  • There's no question. It's obvious Betsen is pushed backwards by Robinson's hand, and then knocked down by another French's knee, maybe Bonnaire's.
    And you know what ? I'm French (sorry for my english).
    All of us rugby fans must keep the good spirit. I don't care much who will be world champion soon, I just want to see some nice rugby. And fact is I'm very frustrated by 2007 RWC.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at October 10, 2007 2:14 pm  

  • Even the Rugbydump admin have had enough of this debate! its boring now fella's!

    Simon you martyr, fair play for the comment but you wont see the Frenchies beat England!


    By Anonymous 9, at October 10, 2007 4:47 pm  

  • comeon.. he got kneed by his team mate.. and by the way.. i tink robinson pushes him and as his pushes betson, his hand juz closes up.. it doesnt mean tat he punched betson

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at October 10, 2007 5:09 pm  

  • I definitely think it was a punch. I found that on the internet (http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/7315/marronrt3.jpg), it should convince those who think it is only because of Harinordoquy's knee. I personally think both the punch and the knee are responsible.

    By Blogger Tom, at October 10, 2007 5:15 pm  

  • If keith robinson had of punched him everyone knows the other french player standing there would have taken it up with Robinson.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at October 10, 2007 5:24 pm  


    he pushes him to the knee of his own play. watch the first few second frame by frame

    i thought he punch him but its a waste to even argue it.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at October 10, 2007 7:06 pm  

  • who care's he's french.....

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at October 10, 2007 8:28 pm  

  • You have to be a kiwi to be so smart... see? it's so fun to throw stupid insults... i hope you are not a rugby player otherwise I'm going to have to change everything I know about rugby. The fight is on the pitch. Those stupid insults in comments show so much respects for other people... well done.

    By Blogger momeunier, at October 10, 2007 10:50 pm  

  • i remember watching the game and i saw that after robinson pushed him down he got hit by the other players leg

    By Anonymous jamie, at October 11, 2007 4:30 am  

  • There is no conspiracy here, it was a push by Robinson and then a french knee.... what is this 60-40 opinion stuff?? are you on drugs?

    The ABs have been nothing but class after this defeat (ok maybe not Howlett) and are NOT known for their dirty play. You should remove this ridiculous video from your site.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at October 11, 2007 6:19 am  

  • on the first playing view, we see clearly the punch making pause at the right moment !!
    there no knees and serge went dowm ko

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at October 11, 2007 6:51 am  

  • I saw it live and immediately thought it was a punch. The All Blacks have been getting away with taking out players for years, and usually in the 'intimidatory' first minutes. Driscoll? anyone? They pride themselves on it. When France refused to be intimidated, New Zealand knew they had no where else to go, so they choked.

    By Blogger Paul Sutton, at October 11, 2007 6:44 pm  

  • Good analysis, I thought he was hit by an accidental knee though. But Robinson's character does raise some questions. If it was due to illegal play I do hope that Serge gets the last laugh and *gulp* France wins the World Cup

    *Grieving All Black fan 101*

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at October 12, 2007 1:16 am  

  • This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at October 12, 2007 1:43 am  

  • This is so obviously the knee of the French Player that anyone seriously suggests that it is a punch should stop, reflect on whether they have a deep seated anti-NZ bias, and then watch again.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at October 12, 2007 2:37 am  

  • Why did they even put this Bloody thing on rugbydump, its so bloody obvious that Frecnh number 8 knocked him down

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at October 14, 2007 12:10 am  

  • Ok... When I saw this live my first thought was that he had been given a love nudge by Robinson... however looking at the replay I think its pretty clear that Betsen was knocked out by the knee of his team mate.

    In my mind it pretty clear that it wasnt a punch because a) Robinson would have been cited for it by now and b) the player who actually knocked Betsen out would have had a very good view of any punch that was thrown (it would have had to have been a gool old wallop to KO Betsen) - the fact that there was no immediate reaction from him (the owner of said knee) shows it was just an unfortunate accident.

    By Blogger Oliver, at October 14, 2007 3:07 am  

  • Check the live camara shots. u can c that all black pushes Betsen down just as a french player comes to join the ruck. the players knee goes straight into the side of Betsens head.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at October 14, 2007 6:57 pm  

  • There is a better camera angle that showed on the live tv 3 coverage.

    Besten does start to get up, but he gets a push in the chest and hits his head on the ground. It only showed once in the rest of the replays and not one of the commentators said a word about it.

    You cant see who the arm belongs to.

    I dont even think robinson would be stupid enough to throw a punch at a time like that, in a game like that with all the media attention on the AB's breakdown tactics.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at October 18, 2007 2:04 am  

  • I admit, it was me. You can't actually see me standing just in front of the back foot of the scrum, but when Serge went down I knew I had my chance. I pulled out my Tazer and stunned him. Good thing I then went off the pitch for a beer as my cloaking device then malfunctioned in the bar and I had to pay for my drinks....

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at October 19, 2007 2:26 pm  

  • fah that dude got knocked out

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at December 05, 2007 4:21 pm  

  • the thing that iritatse me most is evry body say Joe's knee kniocked him out but he ovisely get back and is pushed down again.
    i dont understand why ppl would say bullshite like that???

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at December 16, 2007 12:47 pm  

  • Robinson definitely pushs a player, Betsen who doesn't have the ball and should be penalised for it. The referee and touch judge miss it, as they miss many things like a forward pass later in the same game. There was nothing malicious in it but Betsen was unlucky that his team mate's knee happened to be there. I don't think Robinson puched him and he didn't deserve a card, just a penalty.

    Harry Craig

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at December 20, 2007 7:39 am  

  • you have a decent enough point but to be honest i think the whole event was just an accident.

    betson makes the tackle and all is well, he tackles with his shoulder and nothing happens his head on the way down.

    as he starts to get up robinson simply shoves him back down, nothing extremely wrong with that but as the force of robinsons push pushes betson towards the groud the french number 8, knees betsons head and i think thats where the clear knock out comes from....

    i suppose if you want you can look at this negitively but i think it was all just pure bad timing!

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at January 05, 2008 1:39 am  

  • Even if it were a punch by Robinson (it wasn't if you watch the clip with both eyes open), I've never heard of punching someone in the sternum giving them a concussion (the upper chest for you illiterate who posted above). Had he been knocked out by this mysterious "punch", his neck would have gone limp and his head would've fallen backwards, not the way he did. If you're going to make your decision based on Pelous's reaction, you've obviously never played rugby before. Anyone seeing another player put a hand on a teammate always gets heated, regardless of if it were a punch/slap/tickle.

    By Anonymous Hellburger, at January 11, 2008 5:55 pm  

  • A storm in a teacup clearly, but looked interesting anyway.

    Unlike Mark Cueto, we'll admit when we're wrong. :)

    By Blogger Rugbydump, at January 24, 2008 1:27 pm  

  • It's not a punch. Sometimes the slower you play something the worse it looks. Look at the first view of the incident and you'll Robinson's arm changing angle as he pushes Betsen - no power behind it just a cheeky extra second at ruck time.

    A knee to the temple after an elbow to the jaw is a pretty effective way of putting someone's lights out.

    By Anonymous Jimmer, at February 11, 2008 10:39 pm  

  • I don't understand this, people are all saying that they choked, how is that possible if the pass was forward, the all blacks are a great team, personally i don't like them because they're so cocky but they didn't choke they lost from poor refing, and this is coming from an English/Irish Canadian

    By Anonymous Dave, at April 04, 2008 3:57 am  

  • When french flanker Betsen wants to go up NZ Lock Keith Robinson pushes him down then he gets a whack behind the head by his own lock Fabien Pelous. Unfortunate.

    By Blogger Benhy, at April 28, 2008 9:51 am  

  • ab's dishing out cheap shots as usual

    By Anonymous welshno7, at December 18, 2008 12:04 pm  

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