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Thursday, August 28, 2008

Jano Vermaak spears Fabian Juries - Yellow or Red?

The Cheetahs went to the top of the table in the Currie Cup this weekend, as they overcame the Lions away from home, winning 38-28 last Friday night in Johannesburg.

Young up-and-coming Lions scrum half Jano Vermaak spent ten mins of the game in the bin though, after this bad spear tackle on Sevens star Fabian Juries was adjudged to be a yellow card.

Juries, who is one of the top players on the IRB World Series Sevens circuit, is seeing more and more game time in the fifteens code. So far he hasn't had enough space to light up the Currie Cup, but given an inch, he'll take it and is one to watch for the rest of the season.

Feisty Vermaak however, was lucky to get away with only a yellow, as the discussion between the ref and assistant ref (the artist formerly known as touch judge) sounded like it was heading in the direction of red.

The Cheetahs scored a valuable ten points with Vermaak off, and would have had a significant advantage in the second half had the call given him a more permanent seat on the sidelines.

Should these type of tackles be straight reds, or is yellow sufficient?

Time: 02:40



  • thats a red card.
    he clearly meant to spear him.
    he should expect a diciplinary hearing soon.

    (mind u good tackle for a number 9:)

    By Anonymous no 9, at August 28, 2008 5:13 pm  

  • At 0:35 there's another spear tackle!!!

    By Blogger Ruairí, at August 28, 2008 5:21 pm  

  • in my opinion a yellow should be sufficient for this tackle in particular. the neck or head did not connect on the ground during the fall.
    As for spear tackles in general, my opinion is this: if someone spears,the referee HAS to give him a card, red or yellow is to his discretion. there should be 3/4 criterias to base that decision on I think.

    ps: I now you'll all hate me for the 2 last things I'm about to say.


    By Anonymous italianscrummy, at August 28, 2008 5:21 pm  

  • fuck, I just blew my first comment thing!!

    By Anonymous italianscrummy, at August 28, 2008 5:22 pm  

  • red, it's dangerous in the extreme, bad call ref,

    unions need to start getting tough.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at August 28, 2008 5:26 pm  

  • To Italianscrummy: the only reason his head/neck did not hit the ground, was because he (the tackled guy) used his arm to support himself.

    I would say this is a red, although I do agree that the colour of the card is to be decided by the ref.

    Flanker from the Netherlands

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at August 28, 2008 6:24 pm  

  • it's red, and stupid too!! he gave cheetahs the momentum... wich I'm might add, was quite nice of him, made it easier for vrystaat


    By Anonymous Cheis, at August 28, 2008 6:30 pm  

  • Spear tackle at 0:35 deserves a red card, the guy doesn't have the ball.

    The second one? hmmm, deserves a red card too!

    By Anonymous jbmass, at August 28, 2008 6:31 pm  

  • Red card
    he's lucky the tackled player used his arm to stabilize his body and don't get injured,otherwise sort of a ban would be welcome.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at August 28, 2008 6:52 pm  

  • Spear tackles are shit, be as harsh as possible and they will stop..

    By Anonymous Eric, at August 28, 2008 6:58 pm  

  • i think a red card would have been ok.
    on a different note: Was the ref talking afrikaans at some point? i heard 2 or words which sounded a lot like that. i'm just wondering if that is normal or does he just speak afrikaans to players who can speak? anyone info on that?

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at August 28, 2008 7:12 pm  

  • Stupid stuff!
    Thats a red!!!

    By Blogger sacoho, at August 28, 2008 7:26 pm  

  • Definite red card, and the guy shows absolutely no remorse or concern for the guy he speared. Spear tackles are cheap shots - whatever happened to good, old-fashioned hits, a la Jason White, that just knock the wind out of a guy and put him on his arse? Why do guys feel the need to twist guys up in the air and drive them onto their heads?

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at August 28, 2008 7:42 pm  

  • although no damage came of it, it is pretty dangerous if the pressure all goes on the spine. dont understand how something such as the Epi Taione headbutt is judged to be red but this isnt. i know there are different refs and everything, but the risk of serious damage is so much higher with something like this.

    By Anonymous caucau's no.1 fan, at August 28, 2008 7:52 pm  

  • that was certainly an awesome tackle at most a warning!!! no 9 diciplinary hearing are you mad go and put your favourite dress back on and sing the sound of music on a hill!!!!

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at August 28, 2008 8:01 pm  

  • ^
    "The hills are aliiive, with the sound of muuusic"

    It's possible they spoke Afrikaans. South African's like to mix it up, just to confuse the overseas viewers. ;)
    The 'SERRRRIUS' comments by the ref and touch judge were hinting at a well known tv ad in SA btw. That's what the commentator mentioned also "They've been watching too much tv."

    I need to try link to it, but cant find it anywhere. Seriousss.

    Back on topic - I think Vermaak was just happy to find someone close to his own size that he could dump. Call me old fashioned, but I think a red would have been a little harsh.

    By Anonymous Sharky, at August 28, 2008 8:18 pm  

  • Red card.

    Its just far too dangerous!

    By Anonymous TheFullback, at August 28, 2008 8:51 pm  

  • Yep straight red card, if you can't play the game properly then don't bother. I'm not sure why anyone ever tries to make a case of a player avoiding landing on his head, they shouldn't have to avoid it.

    Good that you're trying to make a point and fuel some discussion with these videos by the way.

    (I'm not able to post on the forum for some reason btw, not sure what's going on there)

    By Anonymous rockylamontagne, at August 28, 2008 9:09 pm  

  • its the second spear in the clip must be a coaching thing

    By Blogger kentba, at August 28, 2008 9:14 pm  

  • A mio parere il placcaggio tecnicamente è corretto essendo ad altezza della vita.
    Ovviamente il fatto che sia stato eseguito dopo il fischio dell'arbitro lo rende sanzionabile.
    Tuttavia,in un ottica come quella del super 14,dove spesso gesti più gravi non vengono sanzionati(per esempio lo stumping)ritengo che un giallo sia sufficente.

    Ps Ma allora non sono l'unico Italiano!?!?
    Che bello,mi sento meno solo!

    By Anonymous TerzaAla Genova, at August 28, 2008 9:16 pm  

  • yellow, for both, I reckon the first one at 35' is as if not more punishable given that the ball is gone.

    By Blogger julien, at August 28, 2008 9:43 pm  

  • That's quite funny to see how things change : everyone wants a red for any spear tackle (who are dangerous, I agree) when, just some years ago, both crowds and journalists were congratulating the player who succeeded to do it ("Very technical tackle !").

    (Sorry for the mistakes)

    By Blogger Pitseleh, at August 28, 2008 10:17 pm  

  • in my experience, most of those type of tackles are deliberate. they just happen in the heat of the moment. so in my opinion a yellow should suffice to allow the player a bit of time to calm down

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at August 28, 2008 10:37 pm  

  • rockylamontagne - You should be able to post in the forum now. Please post a test thread/post to check.

    All other new or past forum registrations, you'll need to please make sure you check your junk mail folder, especially if you're signing up with yahoo or hotmail. If you still have problems, please drop us an email and we'll sort it out. thanks.

    By Blogger RD, at August 28, 2008 11:26 pm  

  • I'm suprised no one has mentioned this yet. The referee blew his whistle (for the first offense) as the tackle was being completed. I think the reason the tackle looked so bad is because the person being tackled stopped 'fighting' the tackle whilst the tackler continued through.

    I've seen it before in games and I think it is important for the ball carrier to always fight to get to ground and take some responsibility for their own safety. This is not meant to exonerate the tackler or remove their responsibility, it is just important for the safety of all concerned.

    By Anonymous sambobly, at August 29, 2008 3:01 am  

  • A nasty one and considering how much kerfuffle there is about spear tackles these days it must make coaches tear their hair out when players just decide they're going to do it anyway.
    And if you pause this at the point the whistle goes (0.48) Vermaak is still a metre away and had time to pull out of the tackle or just take the bump. The fact that he went through with it for a few seconds after that point has got to count against him if this goes further. As others have mentioned there looks like another attempted spear earlier on, so maybe the coach is part of the problem after all.
    Some real nice running in this clip.

    By Anonymous breakaway, at August 29, 2008 3:54 am  

  • should be a penalty try... what a nice tackle in aus we like that stuff its a killer

    aussie aussie aussie oi oi oi!

    By Anonymous george smith, at August 29, 2008 7:33 am  

  • that's not even a yellow card. it's rugby, not bellydancing you sissies

    By Anonymous fcuk, at August 29, 2008 10:13 am  

  • Rugby is a game of tackles not cheap shots. Would you like it if he'd pulled a knife and stabbed the guy, Fcuk?

    I actually thought the ref was going to discuss the first red cardable spear tackle, but no, to my surprise, he waited for the second.

    Where are you, Pitseleh, that crowds and journo's appluded this a few years ago? I've certainly never heard of such a reaction in the last 10 years.

    By Blogger Anarchangel, at August 29, 2008 11:56 am  

  • It's quite obviously a Red. If it was me I would've just dumped him straight back on his ass. Much more humiliating.

    Cheap shopt, he meant it and as such deserved more.

    I've been guilty of the same thing in the past and have got a way with it - afterwards you feel like an idiot becuase you realise yuo could've hurt someone. Sometims you jsut get caught up in it.

    By Anonymous Boshking, at August 29, 2008 12:09 pm  

  • i'd call it red cos the ref had already blown his whistle and the guy still speared him.

    theres another spear in there off the ball

    By Anonymous rob, at August 29, 2008 12:19 pm  

  • red card
    the red #9 could have broken yellow 11`s neck or shoulder

    By Anonymous scot, at August 29, 2008 12:38 pm  

  • I think Vermaak's apparent look of showing no remorse was more kind of embarrassment or surprise at what just happened really. He's certainly not an over-aggressive scrummy like some others out there.

    One thing I love though, is how not one hand gets laid on him after the first shove from Fortuin. Watch closely and you'll see that all his forwards and team mates get in their to stand up for him. Great to see that camaraderie, despite the dirty tackle obviously.

    By Anonymous Benson, at August 29, 2008 1:00 pm  

  • ruairi i noticed that 2... i personally didnt think the tackle was that bad seeing as it he did land n his arm.. if you are dumping someone its not as easy to controll them as you would think...i dont study th rule book...but if a spear is a red then it should be a red card..because that ws a spear..this is where the game will turn into footy because of the dispute over rules..if a spear is a red then it should have been a red

    By Anonymous Greg Turner, at August 29, 2008 2:32 pm  

  • Blatant red send him off.

    By Anonymous Andy, at August 29, 2008 5:25 pm  

  • yellow. I think the default should be yellow, as they will be reviewed by a panel later anyway, when they can suspend the person if it was that heinous and the ref blew it.

    I think what many people fail to remember is that for years if not decades this was a proper tackle if you could pull it off. You can't just re-coach or re-train it in a year, or even in a few years. If you were coached to do it for years, it is an instinct. After a few more years, it will continue to become less prevalent, as younger players and more years of not coaching this type of tackle have a longer time to take effect.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at August 29, 2008 6:21 pm  

  • Should have been a red.

    A spear tackle is a spear tackle.
    There are no mitigating circumstances, only aggravating circumstances:

    1) off the ball
    2) after the whistle
    3) tackled player in unable to brace, landing on head, neck or shoulder

    4) tackled player injured.
    Not just head or neck -- the tackled player might not injure their head or neck, but they could even get a serious / career ending injury to their knees, elbow or wrist has you get one extremity anchoring into the ground and then both players' body weights fall onto it.

    By Blogger Cheyanquí, at August 29, 2008 6:34 pm  

  • Its rugby not ballet - yellow is fine...

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at August 29, 2008 7:19 pm  

  • The Both of them deserved red cards. Both were dangerous, and unnecessary.

    By Blogger Ryan, at August 30, 2008 1:23 am  

  • red! no way..
    there's no need to spear someone to hit him hard in rugby
    spears are made to injure and there's someone who had is neck broken.. so italianscrummy it's not important if he hit the ground with his neck or not,because he could have and that's enough for me!

    By Anonymous Mager ITA, at August 30, 2008 10:35 am  

  • thats definetly a yellow card, theres no way thats a red!!

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at August 30, 2008 4:04 pm  

  • Red card that's all. These tackles are really useless.

    By Blogger Arnaud, at August 30, 2008 7:04 pm  

  • is it just me or did the spear happen just after the wistle? thats probably the reason he got an easy lift up in the first place

    By Anonymous mr. b rant, at August 31, 2008 6:14 am  

  • he should defintely get a yellow, for a 9 (and a pretty pathetic looking one to say the least) to be able to hit like that, i think he deserves a little respect. just a yellow for the plain reason that there have been much much more horrific tackles that have warranted just yellow. and does anyone notice the late spear on one of the yellow players about 8 seconds earlier or so?

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at August 31, 2008 12:24 pm  

  • honestly, tackler knew it was going to be a late tackle, he could have simply pushed him away instead of picking him up.
    the fact that he committed a late tackle, referee or touch judges should have picked up on it and sin-binned him straight away

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at September 01, 2008 8:20 pm  

  • This tackle is what rugby is about dominating your apponent. it used to be encouraged to smash a player like that.
    I think it still should be encouraged because throughout the next however many minutes there were left in that match Id bet a lot of money that man did not want anything to with the number 9!
    Bring it all back!!!!:)

    By Anonymous Folkestone RFC 4 life, at September 01, 2008 8:32 pm  

  • He doesn't try to rive him into the ground, and lets go when he realises what's going on - looks like he didn't intend to spear him. Yellow was the right decision, a ban would just be silly.

    Anyway, he was coming down sideways, and being dropped onto a braced arm is not "dangerous in the extreme" as one post phrased it.

    Spear tackles are stupid, but this wasn't meant to be one, and technically speaking, isn't

    By Anonymous Crazy Baggers, at September 01, 2008 8:51 pm  

  • Anyway, most "spear tackles" are dump tackles which go a bit wrong. I doubt anyone actually wants to break an opponent's neck (except Mealamu and Umaga maybe)

    By Anonymous Angry Baggers, at September 01, 2008 8:53 pm  

  • Im certainly a fan of all spear tackles definetly a yellow, and any off the ball spears is a auto red

    To me Jonker got that wrong and a red card should have been issued.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at September 02, 2008 8:27 am  

  • Rugby has become a watered down, cotton-wrapped faggott's game.
    "Spear tackles" (categorised after Brain "pussy from the North" O'driscol) got pumped by Tana, High tackles and shoulder barges where perfectly leagal in the old days. You learned how to fall and how to position yourself to avoid getting rucked - or faced the consequences!

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at September 04, 2008 4:08 pm  

  • great tackle!! it's just the camera angle that makes it look bad.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at September 08, 2008 12:47 pm  

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